Skip to content

Like this? Share it!

  • Share on Facebook
  • Share on Twitter
  • Share on LinkedIn
  • Share on Email
Closer To Truth
  • Watch
    • Seasons & EpisodesWatch complete episodes as aired on public television
    • Curated PlaylistsExplore collections of videos curated by our team
    • ProjectsDiscover collaborations with leading institutions
    • ContributorsMeet the greatest thinkers exploring the deepest questions
    • CTT ChatsWatch candid conversations with the brightest minds on the boldest ideas
    • Roundtable ArchivesView roundtable discussions from our early years
  • Topics
    • Cosmos, Life, Consciousness, Meaning: Explore the fundamental questions of existence.Topic Guide
    • All Topics
      • CosmosExplore cosmology, physics, and the fundamentals of existence
        • Back
        • All Cosmos
        • Deep Laws of Nature
          • Back
          • All Deep Laws of Nature
          • Cosmic Fundamentals
          • Time and Space-Time
          • Quantum Theory
          • Philosophy of Science
          • Complexity and Emergence
          • Mathematics as Fundamental?
          • Information as Fundamental?
          • Universe as Simulation?
          • Deep Discoveries in Science
        • Vast Cosmos
          • Back
          • All Vast Cosmos
          • Cosmic Immensity
          • Cosmic Beginnings
          • Cosmic Structure
          • Multiple Universes (Multiverse)
          • Black Holes, Dark Energy, Dark Matter
        • Our Special Universe
          • Back
          • All Our Special Universe
          • Fine-Tuning of the Universe?
          • Fine-Tuning the Universe for Life & Mind?
          • Breathtaking Universe
          • Alien Intelligences?
          • Far Future of the Universe
        • Breakthroughs
          • Back
          • All Breakthroughs
          • Breakthroughs in Science
          • Breakthroughs in Mathematics
        • Science and Religion
          • Back
          • All Science and Religion
          • Science vs. Religion?
          • Science and God
          • How Science and Religion Think
          • The New Atheism
          • Limits of Science
        • Mystery of Existence
          • Back
          • All Mystery of Existence
          • The Mystery of Existence
          • The Mystery of Laws & Cosmos
          • Metaphysics of Cosmos
          • Why Anything at All?
      • LifeJoin our in-depth exploration of life on planet earth and beyond.
        • Back
        • All Life
        • Philosophy of Biology
          • Back
          • All Philosophy of Biology
          • Why Philosophy of Biology?
          • Philosophy of Evolutionary Biology
          • Philosophy of Genes and Information
          • Philosophy of Evolution and Religion
        • What is Life?
          • Back
          • All What is Life?
          • What is Life?
          • What is Death?
        • Human Biology
          • Back
          • All Human Biology
          • Human Nature & Uniqueness
          • Evolutionary Culture and Ethics
          • Sex and Gender
          • Biology of Race
          • Medicine and Healthcare
          • Biological Futures
        • Life in the Cosmos
          • Back
          • All Life in the Cosmos
          • Life in the Cosmos
        • Biological Concepts
          • Back
          • All Biological Concepts
          • Mathematics and Biology
          • Deception
          • Plant Sentience
      • ConsciousnessSearch mysteries of mind and individual awareness
        • Back
        • All Consciousness
        • Mind-Body Problems
          • Back
          • All Mind-Body Problems
          • The Mind-Body Problem
          • Brain Structure and Function
          • Brain Explains Mind?
          • Elements of Mind
        • Consciousness
          • Back
          • All Consciousness
          • Mystery of Consciousness
          • Landscape of Consciousness
          • Consciousness as Emergent
          • Consciousness as All Physical?
          • States of Consciousness
          • Sleep and Dreams
          • Purpose of Consciousness?
          • Metaphysics of Consciousness
        • Persons
          • Back
          • All Persons
          • Persons and Selves
          • Personal Identity
          • Life After Death?
          • Souls?
          • Human Uniqueness
          • Creativity
          • Music
          • Epistemology
          • Belief Systems
          • Mind and Society
          • People and Society
        • Free Will
          • Back
          • All Free Will
          • Mystery of Free Will
          • Philosophy of Free Will
          • Free Will and Consciousness
          • Science of Free Will
          • Free Will and Morality
          • Theology of Free Will
        • Extrasensory Perception
          • Back
          • All Extrasensory Perception
          • ESP and New Realities?
          • ESP and the Nonphysical?
        • Art Seeking Understanding
          • Back
          • All Art Seeking Understanding
          • Aesthetic Cognitivism
          • Art and Philosophy
          • Neuroscience/Cognitive Science of Art
          • Neuroscience/Cognitive Science of Music
          • Art and God
          • Art and Religion
          • Art and Culture
          • Mind, Art, Transcendence
          • Art Seeking Understanding Projects
      • MeaningSeek whether God exists through diverse perspectives
        • Back
        • All Meaning
        • Philosophy of Religion
          • Back
          • All Philosophy of Religion
          • Concepts of God
          • Alternative Concepts of God
          • Faith and Belief
          • Conflict Among Religions
          • Philosophy and Analytic Theology
          • Contemporary Theological Engagement
          • How Philosophy Informs Religion
          • Religion Without God
          • Eastern Traditions and the Big Questions
          • Global Philosophy of Religion
        • Existence of God
          • Back
          • All Existence of God
          • Arguing God's Existence
          • Philosophical Arguments For God
          • Experiential Arguments For God
          • Arguments Against God
        • Attributes of God
          • Back
          • All Attributes of God
          • God's Nature?
          • God's Essence?
          • God's Powers?
          • God and Time?
        • God as Creator
          • Back
          • All God as Creator
          • God The Creator?
          • God's Interactions?
          • God's World?
        • Ultimate Destinies
          • Back
          • All Ultimate Destinies
          • God's Knowledge and Future Events?
          • Judgment (Heaven, Hell)?
          • Resurrection?
          • Eschatology (End Times)?
          • Eternal Life?
          • Search for Meaning
  • News
    • All NewsStay up-to-date with the latest from Closer To Truth
    • Book ExcerptsExplore recently authored books from our contributors
    • PerspectivesRead essays and articles from our community
  • About
    • About Closer To TruthWe are a digital-media nonprofit and TV series
    • The TV SeriesWhere to watch on PBS stations nationwide
    • DonateDonate now to keep our content free!
    • Meet the TeamMeet the host and team behind Closer To Truth
    • PartnershipsLearn about our partners and collaborators
    • Support Closer To TruthWays to engage with and support our work
    • PodcastListen on your favorite podcast player
    • StoreBuy official Closer To Truth merchandise
    • YouTubeSubscribe to Closer To Truth on YouTube
  • Donate
Search
  • Login
  • Join
  • Watch
    • EpisodesWatch complete episodes as aired on public television
    • Curated PlaylistsExplore collections of videos curated by our team
    • ProjectsDiscover collaborations with leading institutions
    • ContributorsMeet the greatest thinkers exploring the deepest questions
    • CTT ChatsWatch chats with the brightest minds on the boldest ideas
    • RoundtablesView roundtable discussions from our early years
  • Topics
    • Topic GuideCosmos, Consciousness, Meaning: Join us as we explore the fundamental questions of existence.
    • CosmosExplore cosmology, physics, and the fundamentals of existence
    • ConsciousnessSearch mysteries of mind and individual awareness
    • MeaningSeek whether God exists through diverse perspectives
  • News
    • The Latest
  • About
    • About Closer To TruthWe are a digital-media nonprofit and TV series
    • TV SeriesWhere to watch on PBS stations nationwide
    • Meet the TeamMeet our host and our team
    • DonateDonate now to keep our content free!
    • PartnershipsLearn about CTT’s partners and collaborators
    • Support Closer to TruthWays to engage with and support our work
    • PodcastListen on your favorite podcast player
    • StoreBuy official Closer To Truth merchandise
    • YouTubeSubscribe to Closer To Truth on YouTube
    • FAQLearn about Closer to Truth membership
  • Login
  • Join

video

Topic Series

John Hawthorne

  • Watch Next
Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on Transhumanism

Zoltan Istvan on Transhumanism

Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on Neologisms

Zoltan Istvan on Neologisms

Cover image for Susan Schneider: MindFest Retrospective

Susan Schneider: MindFest Retrospective

Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on the Impact of AI Deepfakes

Zoltan Istvan on the Impact of AI Deepfakes

Cover image for James Hughes on Transhumanism: Citizen Cyborg and Democratic Societies

James Hughes on Transhumanism: Citizen Cyborg and Democratic Societies

Cover image for Mark Bailey on Unknowable Minds: Autonomous Weapons

Mark Bailey on Unknowable Minds: Autonomous Weapons

  • Details
  • Transcripts
  • Formats
    • Share
Featured In

  • What Things are Real?
Contributors

John Hawthorne

John Hawthorne works on contemporary metaphysics, epistemology, knowledge, meaning
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
John, I've had this strange lifelong obsession to know what's real, what things in the existence are really there. So my scientist friends say particles and forces and those who are religiously inclined add spiritual realms or God and all of that, but as a philosopher, you look at reality in a little bit different kind of way, so help me understand what's real.
John Hawthorne
I don't think I have some really weird or distinctive sort of take on these things. I think it's first good to think about what you started with in terms of what your scientist friends think. I mean, if you ask you scientist friends are there voltmeters, they'd probably say yes rather than no, and is a voltmeter a particle? No. Is it a force? No. So in a way you mischaracterized what you're, or maybe they're mischaracterizing themselves. Maybe when you ask the question that way, they feel they've got to say something feasible.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Yeah, but that's totally reductionist in their view, because they don't look upon a voltmeter as something other than a construct of something that's not real, or it's constructed.
John Hawthorne
So a voltmeter isn't real?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
It's constructed.
John Hawthorne
But that's a fudge answer, so–
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay.
John Hawthorne
—so constructed things aren't real?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Constructed real don't have the same level of reality that something underneath it would, of which it's constructed.
John Hawthorne
But it's natural to think, at least naively, that there's, well, there are some things and there are some things that there aren't, so there aren't mermaids, there are electrons,
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right.

John Hawthorne
So we get the hang of that. There aren't mermaids, there aren't ghosts, unless you know some Irish fables, alright, or whatever.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right, but there is the idea of mermaids. There's an idea of mermaids.
John Hawthorne
Right, so, there are ideas of mermaids, there are pictures of mermaids, there are books about mermaids, there aren't mermaids.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right.
John Hawthorne
So it's very important to distinguish the one question: is there a book about mermaids, and the question is there an idea about mermaids, and the question are there mermaids?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay.
John Hawthorne
And the natural answer, you know, which seems like a pretty good answer is no to are there mermaids, yes to are there ideas about mermaids, yes to are there books about mermaids, and then if we carry on like that. So I'm just, at least as a starting point, we've got to get straight what our natural intuitive picture is, is that there are voltmeters and there are particles. It doesn't seem like voltmeters are like mermaids
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right. But voltmeters have a greater claim to existence but, but if the ideas of mermaids exist, the ideas exist, that's something that exists–
John Hawthorne
That's something, yes.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
–that's real.
John Hawthorne
Right, that's real. So you can add those to the list, ideas about mermaids. So we've got, you know.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right.
John Hawthorne
But we've already got a fairly expanse, if we just start with our sort of intuitive, our intuitive views, I mean, we put a whole bunch of things on the list like particles and voltmeters, and chairs and tables, and ideas about mermaids, and ideas about statutes, and ideas about electrons and so on and so on. And then we get to slightly tendentious things–
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Like what?
John Hawthorne
–like God and angels, on the one hand, and maybe, the numbers people would start, you know. But still, if we think about it just naively in terms of there are questions, if you're asked are there numbers between two and seven, you'd say yes; you wouldn't say no. So it looks like at least the first pass is that there are, you know. We can get a big long list just by asking, there-are questions.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay.
John Hawthorne
So then, there are a few ways to go from there. We start compiling a list just by asking, there-are questions. And I think that's a good place to start.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
I like that.
John Hawthorne
Are there, and then put a noun there, a common noun, and see what people say. And I think you'll find convergence on you know if you ask physicists are there voltmeters, they'll say of course there are.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Yeah, right.
John Hawthorne
Then, one thing to think about is, is there something that's added to the question of such-and-such real? You know having said there are tables, is there some further question, are tables real? It doesn't sound like it to me. I mean if you really think there are tables, you seem to be done with the question are tables real. Isn't not like well we've discovered there are tables now let's move on to this extra question are there these tables that there are real or are they non-real, and it seems if there are some, then they're real. So I don't think the question are tables real, on the face of it at least, it doesn't add anything to the question of the tables, and on the face of it, everyone thinks there are tables and on the face of it, it's a really tough, you wouldn't really expect a scientist to come along and have some really good argument that there aren't tables.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
But there is stuff that once you say there are X, that there is a further question, whether it's God or things like that–
John Hawthorne
Yes.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
—or, you know, there are books about mermaids. If you didn't know there are no mermaids, but–
John Hawthorne
Right, but do you really think it's for a philosopher to figure out whether there are these kind of, you know, things in the sea that have, you know, the upper half look like women and the bottom half look like fish. It doesn't seem like–
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
No, no.
John Hawthorne
—you know, if a marine biologist turns one up, then you know, we'll change our mind, but, you know, it's pretty obvious, seems pretty obvious what the answer is, and it seems that we know that marine biologists aren't going to turn them up.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
So, what can we learn, for example, about objects that, that are, for all practical purposes, in their microphysics the same but have different names for them? A lump of clay and a statue could be exactly the same thing but radically called by different names. Venus and the morning star, the evening star; are those the same?
John Hawthorne
So one kind of question which is a bit different to, are there is, is the so-and-so the same thing as the so-and-so?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right.
John Hawthorne
So you touched on a natural question that's been asked since antiquity by philosophers, which is, you know, if you've got a lump of clay that's fashioned into a statue, intuitively you'd think there's a statue over there and intuitively you'd think there's still a lump of clay over there and a good question is, well, are they the same things? So there's one thing with two descriptions, like, you know, Mark Twain and Samuel Clemens, they're not two things, it's one thing with two names.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right. Clark Kent is Superman.
John Hawthorne
It's a thing in a way it's not, but you don't mind me calling people things. Philosophers tend to do that, so. And it looks on the face of it, again, just it's good to get straight what the natural answer is. On reflection it's no, because the lump of clay was around a long time before the statue came into existence and so if the statue came into – if you think the statue came into existence just, you know, a few hours ago, and the lump of clay didn't come into existence a few hours ago, that seems to be fairly decisive. So that's the prime facie decisive consideration that has convinced lots of people that they're different things, so there really are two things there.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay. So in that case, you have every atom can be exactly the same. They are by almost definition; everything's exactly the same, but because the one has more temporal parts than the other–
John Hawthorne
Well, let's sort of bring temporal parts in right now, but just the natural thing to think is there are two things there. I mean not natural if you follow through this line of reasoning, it seems to take you to the conclusion and then you could resist at various points, but it seems to take you to the conclusion there are two things there: a statue, and a lump of clay, and right now they have exactly the same atoms as parts. Now maybe five years ago that wasn't so, because maybe five years ago the statue didn't even exist, whereas the atom was there and it had lots of little atoms as parts, and maybe in five years time things will be very different. I mean, one model for that is, if you slowly take away bits of the clay and replace it, it doesn't seem to destroy the statue, but you could very slowly extract all the original clay and reform it over there and then you'd say, oh. At that point in time, the lump of clay has, you know, those little guys as parts but at that point in time the statue has a completely different bunch of little guys as parts. So what you're pointing out is, if you buy this line of thinking, you'd say it can be that, certainly at one time, I mean we could go through to other questions, but certainly at one time you could have two things that are made up of exactly the same atoms. I mean, do you think that's incredible, or bizarre, or?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
It just helps you to understand what reality is. I mean, it's further information about how the world exists. And so, if we have, you say this table is real, but the table is part of the room so is it, is the table separate from the room or is there a table/room thing?
John Hawthorne
If, I mean your arm, we've got to be a bit careful there, you're arm is part of you, but there isn't this other thing that's you plus your arm. I mean you plus your arm is you, isn't it?
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Right. You without your arm is you.
John Hawthorne
Well, we're playing around with without. I mean the thing right now, which is I can outline that way, that's not you, cause that, that thing, that's seems to be a thing, it's a – it's a – it's a part of you that's almost as big as you but doesn't take up the region of space where your arm is. That guy, let's call it Little You. Little You isn't you, Little You is part of you.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay.
John Hawthorne
So. Now you, if you mean you without your arm Little You, then you without your arm isn't you, if by you without your arm you mean what would happen to – how things would be if I insidiously chopped your arm off or something, then of course you'd still carry on existing, but right now intuitive, I mean, it seems quite natural to think does this thing, you without your arm in the sense that I defined it, that isn't you.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Okay. So if we–
John Hawthorne
But – but one thing that you're getting at is, you've got these intuitive answers to there-are questions and then some there-are questions are tricky, you know maybe are there mermaids isn't tricky but are there, you know, maybe some other sort of, you know, sciencey or biological questions are tricky, you know. And, they're not things that philosophers are going to have very much to say about, you know. But there are more general abstract questions that maybe they might have something to say about. One sort of philosopher says well actually our naïve reactions are excessive. Actually it's not, there aren't really, you know, a lot of the things that we say there are. You know. We say there are holes in the cheese, but the cheese is perforated all right, but there aren't holes; there is just perforated cheese. So you're adding too many things in if you have the cheese and the holes, you should just have, stick with your perforated cheese and not really think there are holes. I mean, so we're taking a liberty when we say there are holes so that sort of philosopher, let's call him or her the subtractor, who's taking the ordinary there-are claims and paring it down, saying no, you're taking a liberty by saying there are holes. There aren't holes. There are just perforated things. And then there's another kind of philosopher, and I'm a bit more the second kind who's an adder, who takes and then says they're even more things than are being dreamt of by naivety, not less.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Like what?
John Hawthorne
Like, I mean, it seems, suppose we buy the thought that there's a statue and a lump of clay, so we're up to two. You might start to wonder well if you can have two things made of the same atoms at the same time, and I gave you a fairly compelling argument why there are two things there, why not have three? You know, maybe – maybe the statue is also functioning as a, you know, maybe it's a little, very little statue that's functioning as a trigger on a gun. So now there's the trigger, the statue, and the material of which the trigger and the statue are composed and we can ask the question, we can ask all sorts of identity questions. We ask is the material the quantity of iron, or whatever it is; the statue, is the quantity of iron the trigger; and, is the trigger the statue? And we can run maybe some arguments that, well, you know, that trigger came into existence when it was used in the creation of this gun but maybe that statue has been around from antiquity, long before the gun was created. And if you buy that line of thought, you might start to think, oh, I guess maybe there are three things in that case. And now you're sort of, you're on a roll now; you start to see that maybe – maybe there are ever so many things and we just pick on some of them, and it's anthropocentric to think that the things we pick on exhaust all the things that there are. The world's teaming with objects that we can't, you know, there's so many objects you wouldn't even believe it. And we just notice a few of them, and talk about a few of them. So. It seems like a fairly, that's a picture that's grown on me. So that makes me an adder, not a subtractor, if you will. What do you think?
  • Short Video
  • Long Video

Watch Next

Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on Transhumanism

Zoltan Istvan Gyurko, professionally known as Zoltan Istvan, is an American transhumanist, journalist, entrepreneur, political candidate, and futurist.

video

Zoltan Istvan on Transhumanism

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

17:28

Watch

Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on Neologisms

What role do new words—neologisms—play in shaping the future? Futurist and transhumanist Zoltan Istvan explores how neologisms reflect evolving technologies, radical...

video

Zoltan Istvan on Neologisms

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

5:26

Watch

Cover image for Susan Schneider: MindFest Retrospective

Dr. Susan Schneider is a philosopher and artificial intelligence (AI) expert. She is the founding director of the Center for the Future Mind at Florida Atlantic University...

video

Susan Schneider: MindFest Retrospective

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

12:07

Watch

Cover image for Zoltan Istvan on the Impact of AI Deepfakes

Zoltan Istvan Gyurko, professionally known as Zoltan Istvan, is an American transhumanist, journalist, entrepreneur, political candidate, and futurist.

video

Zoltan Istvan on the Impact of AI Deepfakes

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

13:50

Watch

Cover image for James Hughes on Transhumanism: Citizen Cyborg and Democratic Societies

James Hughes Ph.D. is the Executive Director of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, and a bioethicist and sociologist who serves as the Associate Provost for...

video

James Hughes on Transhumanism: Citizen Cyborg and Democratic Societies

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

11:33

Watch

Cover image for Mark Bailey on Unknowable Minds: Autonomous Weapons

Dr. Mark Bailey writes about the intersection between artificial intelligence, complexity, and national security. He is an associate professor at the National Intelligence...

video

Mark Bailey on Unknowable Minds: Autonomous Weapons

Classic Chats, CTT Chat

17:16

Watch


Become a Member

Get free access to exclusive content and more.

  • facebook
  • twitter
  • instagram
  • youtube
  • Watch on YouTube
  • Find us on PBS
  • Donate
  • Contact Us

Policies Terms © Closer To Truth. All rights reserved Website by Visceral